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    F-class Rifle-Scopes

    Benchrest Central Forums > Forum Index > Gunsmiths Corner > Remington 700 - Sleeving Important?


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    View Full Version : Remington 700 - Sleeving Important?



    AlanF

    03-30-2008, 05:18 AM

    A dealer has recommended for my club the purchase of a rifle based on a trued and accurised Remington 700. It would be used in Open F-Class and chambered in 6BR. It needs to shoot 1/3MOA or better to be competitive on our 1/2MOA 10 rings in Australia.

    Question: This action is not sleeved - should I prefer something else, or is sleeving something that wouldn't help much for this particular chambering?

    Thanks for any advice.

    Alan


    jackie schmidt

    03-30-2008, 09:21 AM

    Whether you sleeve an action or not depends on how much barrel you are going to hang off of the end. I would amagine you will want a 1-8 twist at least 27 inches long for the 6BR , (I asume you will be shooting the bigger bullets). While Remingtons will handle a 6.5 pound barrel with no problems, some like the added bedding and stability that a sleeve will offer. That also means a new stock, most sleeves have a square bottom, like a Panda footprint.
    But in todays world of readilly available custom actions, many designed for F-Class, I can't see the logic in spending a lot of money on a Factory Action.
    If the Rifle is already assembled, (sounds like someone wants to make a sale), then you will still have to lay out considerable cash for a new stock, the sleeve, and all of the labor involved.
    That is, unless the Dealer is going to give you the Rifle. If it is used, how good is the barrel? What kind of trigger does it have??
    This is probably not the answer you wanted. But the fact is, F-Class is developing into the same high tech game as Benchrest. Sure, when the class was concieved, that probably was not the intent. But any time competition is involved, a natural evolution of equipment will occur.
    Soon, only the best will do. Go over to the 6mmbr.com web site and look at the picture gallery. That gives you an idea as to what you will be up against in F-Class.
    While I do not know what your financial status is toward this purchase, I would think that if you are going to spend a lot of money, go with the best option. After all, sooner or later that is what you will end up doing if you get serious about shooting F-Class........jackie


    chuck furniss

    03-30-2008, 09:31 AM

    Why not ask the dealer to demonstrate the rifle.
    Also have the barrel borescoped for wear.
    Chuck.


    Dennis Sorensen

    03-30-2008, 12:07 PM

    It has been my experience that it takes very little accurizing to get a 700 shooting 1/3 minute with a good barrel...


    Charles E

    03-30-2008, 01:56 PM

    You'll get varying replies to this one. Some feel that the only reason to sleeve a 700 is if you're going to hang a heavy barrel on it -- say 7+pounds. Others feel the increased bedding area is helpful.

    Winning 17-pound light guns have been built on an unsleeved, unblocked 700. Still, that's a little different than saying it isn't helpful. "Needed" or "necessary" don't allow for exceptions. "Prudent" is another story. You can certainly use a 700 with a 30" Palma contoured barrel & no sleeve, but that's less than 7 pounds for the barrel.

    A rifle that will agg 1/3 MOA at 1,000 yards isn't all that easy to build -- or shoot; much harder than a .333 MOA 100 yard rifle. That would be 3.33 inches; a screamer at 1K is anything less than 4 inches. So it all kinda of depends on what your criteria are.


    AlanF

    03-30-2008, 03:43 PM

    Many thanks for the replies. You have answered the question very well. I just needed to know why Remingtons are sleeved and to get a feel for how much difference it would make.

    As some more background, my club successfully applied for a Govt. grant for sporting equipment to get a F-Class rifle to give new shooters a try. We already have a club .223 which only goes to about 700yds (has a longish twist so we run 69gn SMKs). So we need something to give them if we're shooting 800, 900 or 1000 on the particular day they drop in to have a look. BTW the little .223 is very accurate and of course very well mannered, and it has been responsible for bringing in several new members - they get instantly hooked! So that is why we think a 6BR will be good too - it has the same advantages.

    The particular Rem 700 will have a new (Lawton) barrel. We can spec the barrel for twist, length and contour, and would probably have it optimised for 107 SMKs. Note that the class allows a 22 lb rifle weight, so we could if we wanted have a very heavy barrel. However, because this needs to be pleasant to handle (including for women and kids), we are probably more likely to build it to approx LG weight. It has what is described as a Remington Match Trigger (is there such a thing?), and has been "trued", and is pillar bedded in a laminated tracker type stock.

    So we are prepared to accept some compromise against accuracy, and from what you are saying, it sounds like an unsleeved action with a lighter barrel will still go very well, as the 6BRs do!

    Alan


    PPP MMM

    03-30-2008, 05:02 PM

    I like your Club involvement (women and kids).

    Shoot well
    Peter


    Charles E

    03-30-2008, 08:23 PM

    The 700 trigger is a pretty good one for a factory rifle, and a skilled smith can take it down to 1.5 to 2 pounds. But it is still a two-lever trigger; to get into the sub-pound region you need a three-lever trigger.

    As for weight, as F-class rifles are shot off a front rest & rear sandbag, I shouldn't thing weigh that big an issue. Harder will be a stock that will accommodate a largish full-grown man to a smallish kid. It has been a long time since I shot off my belly, and I guess some of the newer stocks can adjust that much, but balance too is important, so if such a butt is heavy, there needs to be some corresponding weight out front (but it doesn't have to be in the barrel).


    AlanF

    03-31-2008, 05:14 PM

    ...Harder will be a stock that will accommodate a largish full-grown man to a smallish kid...
    Yes. Will need to make some allowance for that - thanks.

    Alan


    Rob Carnell

    04-01-2008, 07:51 AM

    It was a 3oz 3 lever and worked really well on my first BR rifle.

    If it is one of these triggers, you will be very happy with it.

    Rob Carnell
    Sydney, Australia


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    Thread: Custom mastin F-class stock (Barnard)

  • 03-08-2013, 07:17 PM#1


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  • 05-08-2013, 08:32 AM#2

    steven is offline
    Member

    $650 on trademe? This will be interesting to watch, damaged with a messy looking stain job.....I was thinking way less....

    great thing of course about TM is the price finding...

    "I do not wish to be a pawn or canon fodder on the whims of MY Government"


  • 05-08-2013, 09:31 AM#3

    PerazziSC3 is offline
    Member

    Yeah well its hard to increase your price, once you put it on cheap isnt it
    Just from the bit of research ive done into them they sell for around $1000 new and are extremely hard to get hold of.
    As I said I have no idea what these things are worth, I aint no target shooter bro


  • 05-08-2013, 05:18 PM#4

    graeme is offline
    Member graeme's Avatar
    QuoteOriginally Posted by stevenView Post

    $650 on trademe? This will be interesting to watch, damaged with a messy looking stain job.....I was thinking way less....

    great thing of course about TM is the price finding...

    I have seen this stock, the only thing wrong with it is shown in the photo above, a bit of damage which would disappear if some bolt clearance was machined out of the comb. I think the your $650 guess is about right.

  • 05-08-2013, 05:36 PM#5

    PerazziSC3 is offline
    Member

    Thanks graeme. Your idea of reshapping the stock is looking quite appealing, will give me a good project as well


  • 07-08-2013, 02:54 PM#6

    PerazziSC3 is offline
    Member
    anddddd sold for $700

  • 07-08-2013, 03:20 PM#7

    R93 is offline
    Member R93's Avatar

    Bugger! I was just lurking hoping you would have it for a while and get sick of it. I was gunna offer 4-5 hundy. Definitely worth the 7 hundy you got but.

    Funny that Mastin designed the stock around/for the Barnard action in the first place and it gets bolt rash on the comb?

    Gunna sell the action Jock?

    Do what ya want! Ya will anyway.


  • 07-08-2013, 03:24 PM#8

    PerazziSC3 is offline
    Member

    They retail for a bit new dont they?

    Yeah i was surprised to see that the bolt smacks it, not a very well thought out design you would think... A simple bit of inletting would solve the problem but still.

    Yep definetely keeping the action, it is very nice and is unique!

    I like the idea of having a 100% nz made gun e.g trueflite/vulcan barrel, nz made stock and barnard action. Pretty cool


  • 07-08-2013, 03:37 PM#9

    R93 is offline
    Member R93's Avatar

    The stock you sold is worth over a grand new. I don't think he does anything cheaper than a grand anyway. What model is the action? Have you decided on cal yet?

    Do what ya want! Ya will anyway.


  • 07-08-2013, 03:40 PM#10

    PerazziSC3 is offline
    Member
    P action with magnum face

    Nope havent decided on cal but I do have a few options to play with

  • Источник: https://www.nzhuntingandshooting.co.nz/

    F-class Rifle Scopes

    What is F-class shooting?

    F-class shooters shoot at a target 300 to 1000 meters away using the prone position. The discipline is named after George 'Farky' Farquharson, a Canadian full-bore target rifle shooter who invented it. It is popular among European shooters as well. The European F-class competitions take place in Italy, Eastern Europe, Balkans, and elsewhere. The shooters use the same equipment, but there are some differences, namely in the targets, timings, and also the numbers of shots for the final result. The general goal of each F-class shooter is to shoot a tight group of 15–20 shots as close to the center of the target as possible.

    Rifles used in F-class shooting

    There are two types of F-class competitions – Open and Target. The rules below apply mostly to the European F-class competitions.

    In the 'Open' discipline, calibers up to .35 are allowed. Competitors can use rifles that weigh up to 10 kg. It is allowed to shoot using a rest.

    In the 'Target' discipline, the use of standard military calibers is permitted (.223 Rem., 5.56x45 mm NATO, .308 Win., 7.62x51 mm NATO, 8x57 IS, 7.62x54R). The maximum allowed mass of the rifle with all the accessories (bipod included) is 8.25 kg. The use of a bipod is allowed but the use of a rest is not.

    In neither of the disciplines can the shooter use a muzzle brake.

    F-Class shooting competition

     

    General features

    F-class is basically a long-range precision shooting discipline, and the rifle scopes in this category are designed for such a purpose. The turrets are either capped or not (both target and tactical turrets are popular). It is important to have fine clicks and great tracking capability, paired with a thin reticle in the second focal plane for minimum coverage of the target. A big maximum magnification (above 30x) is a must-have.

    Light riflescopes for F-class rifles

    One of the rules of the F-class has to do with the limitations of the mass. The competitors want to have as much of the allowed mass as possible in the rifle, meaning that a selection of a light rifle scope is crucial. A combination of a 30mm tube and an objective lens diameter of 52 mm tends to be the optimal choice. Also keeping the weight at a minimum is important, which is why many users opt for less than 800 grams of weight when choosing a rifle scope. The elevation range is limited because of the narrow tube. March was the first manufacturer to design such a rifle scope. Nightforce also followed soon after.

    F-Class shooting competition

    Tactical riflescopes

    When looking for an F-class rifle scope, some shooters consider purchasing a tactical MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA rifle scope, but we do not recommend such a choice. Tactical rifle scopes are meant to hit any part of the target at any distance, whereas F-class rifle scopes are meant for making precise, tight shot groupings on a known distance with possible test shots. Namely, tactical rifle scopes are not suitable for F-class shooting because of:

    • Thick reticle
    • Bigger click value
    • Low maximum magnification (for F-class shooting purposes)

    F-Class shooting competition

    Sightron Optics

    Sightron is the only producer with a strong focus on manufacturing F-class rifle scopes. They are dominating the middle-class market with their SIII series. These rifle scopes are famous for their excellent tracking capability, great optical quality, and an affordable price. The majority of novice shooters go for a Sightron for these reasons. Sightron is successful in this field because they understand the needs of an F-class shooter. Therefore, no unneeded tactical features can be found in their rifle scopes designed for this competition.

    Best F-class riflescopes

    • March (many models)
    • Nightforce (3 models only, but they are among the first producers of such rifle scopes)
    • Kahles (one model)
    • Schmidt & Bender (one model)
    • Sightron (many models)
    • Vortex (one model)

    A short presentation of F-class Riflescopes is available here.

    Video presentation

     

     

    Short Presentation

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    F-class Rifle Scopes

    What is F-class shooting?

    F-class shooters shoot at a target 300 to 1000 meters away using the prone position. The discipline is named after George 'Farky' Farquharson, a Canadian full-bore target rifle shooter who invented it. It is popular among European shooters as well. The European F-class competitions take place in Italy, Eastern Europe, Balkans, and elsewhere. The shooters use the same equipment, but there are some differences, namely in the targets, timings, and also the numbers of shots for the final result. The general goal of each F-class shooter is to shoot a tight group of 15–20 shots as close to the center of the target as possible.

    Rifles used in F-class shooting

    There are two types of F-class competitions – Open and Target. The rules below apply mostly to the European F-class competitions.

    In the 'Open' discipline, calibers up to .35 are https www t online de login. Competitors can use rifles that weigh up to 10 kg. It is allowed to shoot using a rest.

    In the 'Target' discipline, the use of standard military calibers is permitted (.223 Rem., 5.56x45 mm NATO. 308 Win., 7.62x51 mm NATO, 8x57 IS, 7.62x54R). The maximum allowed mass of the rifle with all the accessories (bipod included) is 8.25 kg. The use of a bipod is allowed but the use of a rest is not.

    In neither of the disciplines can the shooter use a muzzle brake.

    F-Class shooting competition

     

    General features

    F-class is basically a long-range precision shooting discipline, and the rifle scopes in this category are 1990 donruss baseball cards worth money for such a purpose. The turrets are either capped or not (both target and tactical turrets are popular). It is important to have fine clicks and great tracking capability, paired with a thin reticle in the second focal plane for minimum coverage of the target. A big maximum magnification (above 30x) is a must-have.

    Light riflescopes for F-class rifles

    One of the rules of the F-class has to do with the limitations of the mass. The competitors want to have as much of the allowed mass as possible in the rifle, meaning that a selection of a light rifle scope is crucial. A combination of a 30mm tube and an objective lens diameter of 52 mm tends to be the optimal choice. Also keeping the weight at a minimum is important, which is why many users opt for less than 800 grams of weight when choosing a rifle scope. The elevation range is limited because of the narrow tube. March was the first manufacturer f class stocks australia design such a rifle scope. Nightforce also followed soon after.

    F-Class shooting competition

    Tactical riflescopes

    When looking for an F-class rifle scope, some shooters consider purchasing a tactical MIL/MIL or MOA/MOA rifle scope, but we do not recommend such a choice. Tactical rifle scopes are meant to hit any part of the target at any distance, whereas F-class rifle scopes are meant for making precise, tight shot groupings on a known distance with possible test shots. F class stocks australia, tactical rifle scopes are not suitable for F-class shooting because of:

    • Thick reticle
    • Bigger click value
    • Low maximum magnification (for F-class shooting purposes)

    F-Class shooting competition

    Sightron Optics

    Sightron is the only producer with a strong focus on manufacturing F-class rifle scopes. They are dominating the middle-class market with their SIII series. These rifle scopes are famous one has to go their excellent tracking capability, great optical quality, and an affordable price. The majority of novice shooters go for a Sightron for these reasons. Sightron is successful in this field because they understand the needs of an F-class shooter. Therefore, no unneeded tactical features can be found in their rifle scopes designed for this competition.

    Best F-class riflescopes

    • March (many models)
    • Nightforce (3 models only, but they are among the first producers of such rifle scopes)
    • Kahles (one model)
    • Schmidt & Bender (one model)
    • Sightron (many models)
    • Vortex (one model)

    A short presentation of F-class Riflescopes is available here.

    Video presentation

     

     

    Short Presentation Optics Trade from Optics-Trade

    Show more

         

    Scroll down to products
    Источник: https://www.optics-trade.eu/au/riflescopes/target-rifle-scopes/f-class-rifle-scopes.html

    Benchrest Central Forums > Forum Index > Gunsmiths Corner > Remington 700 - Sleeving Important?


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    View Full Version : Remington 700 - Sleeving Important?



    AlanF

    03-30-2008, 05:18 AM

    A dealer has recommended for my club the purchase of a rifle based on a trued and accurised Remington 700. It would be used in Open F-Class and chambered in 6BR. It needs to shoot 1/3MOA or better to be competitive on our 1/2MOA 10 rings in Australia.

    Question: This action is f class stocks australia sleeved - should I prefer something else, or is sleeving something that wouldn't help much for this particular chambering?

    Thanks for any advice.

    Alan


    jackie schmidt

    03-30-2008, 09:21 AM

    Whether you sleeve an action or not depends on how much barrel you are going to hang off of the end. I would amagine you will want a 1-8 twist at least 27 inches long for the 6BR(I asume you will be shooting the bigger bullets). While Remingtons will handle a 6.5 pound barrel with no problems, some like the added bedding and stability that a sleeve will offer. That also means a new stock, most sleeves have a square bottom, like a Panda footprint.
    But in todays world of readilly available custom actions, many designed for F-Class, I can't see the logic in spending a lot of money on a Factory Action.
    If the Rifle is already assembled, (sounds like someone wants to make a sale), then you will still have to lay out considerable cash for a new stock, the sleeve, and all of the labor involved.
    That is, unless the Dealer is going to give you the Rifle. If it is used, how good is the barrel? What kind of trigger does it have??
    This is probably not the answer you wanted. But the fact is, F-Class is developing into the same high tech game as Benchrest. Sure, when the class was concieved, that probably was not the intent. But any time competition is involved, a natural evolution of equipment will occur.
    Soon, only the best will do. Go over to the 6mmbr.com web site and look at the picture gallery. That gives you an idea as to what you will be up against in F-Class.
    While I do not know what your financial status is toward this purchase, I would think that if you are going to spend a lot of money, go with i want to pay my metro phone bill online best option. After all, sooner or later that is what you will end up doing if you get serious about shooting F-Class.jackie


    chuck furniss

    03-30-2008, 09:31 AM

    Why not ask the dealer to demonstrate the rifle.
    Also have the barrel borescoped for wear.
    Chuck.


    Dennis Sorensen

    03-30-2008, 12:07 PM

    It has been my experience that it takes very little accurizing to get a 700 shooting 1/3 minute with a good barrel.


    Charles E

    03-30-2008, 01:56 PM

    You'll get varying replies to this one. Some feel that the only reason edmond library phone number sleeve a 700 is if you're going to hang a heavy barrel on it -- say 7+pounds. Others feel the increased bedding area is helpful.

    Winning 17-pound light guns have been built on an unsleeved, unblocked 700. Still, that's a little different than saying it isn't helpful. "Needed" or "necessary" don't allow for exceptions. "Prudent" is what is an online id bank of america story. You can certainly use a 700 with a 30" Palma contoured barrel & no sleeve, but that's less than 7 pounds for the barrel.

    A rifle that will agg 1/3 MOA at 1,000 yards isn't all that easy to build -- or shoot; much harder than a .333 MOA 100 yard rifle. That would be 3.33 inches; a screamer at 1K is anything less than 4 inches. So it all kinda of depends on what your criteria are.


    AlanF

    03-30-2008, 03:43 PM

    Many thanks for the replies. You have answered the question very well. I just needed to know why Remingtons are sleeved and to get a feel for how much difference it would make.

    As some more background, my club successfully applied for a Govt. grant for sporting equipment to get a F-Class rifle to give new shooters a try. We already have a club .223 which only goes to about 700yds (has a longish twist so we run 69gn SMKs). So we need something to give them if we're shooting 800, 900 or 1000 on the particular day they drop in to have a look. BTW the f class stocks australia .223 is very accurate and of course very well mannered, and it has been responsible for bringing in several new members - they get instantly hooked! So that is why we think a 6BR will be good too - it has the same advantages.

    The particular Rem 700 will have a new (Lawton) barrel. We can spec the barrel for twist, length and contour, and would probably have it optimised for 107 SMKs. Note that the class allows a 22 lb rifle weight, so we could if we wanted have a very heavy barrel. However, because this needs to be pleasant to handle (including for women and kids), we are probably more likely to build it to approx LG weight. It has what is described as a Remington Match Trigger (is there such a thing?), and has been "trued", and is pillar bedded in a laminated tracker type stock.

    So we are prepared to accept some compromise against accuracy, and from what you are saying, it sounds like an unsleeved action with a lighter barrel will still go very well, as the 6BRs do!

    Alan


    PPP MMM

    03-30-2008, 05:02 PM

    I like your Club involvement (women and kids).

    Shoot well
    Peter


    Charles E

    03-30-2008, 08:23 PM

    The 700 trigger is a pretty good one for a factory rifle, and a skilled smith can take it down to 1.5 to 2 pounds. But it is still a two-lever trigger; to get into the sub-pound region you need a three-lever trigger.

    As for weight, as F-class rifles are shot off a front rest & rear sandbag, I shouldn't thing weigh that big an issue. Harder will be a stock that will accommodate a largish full-grown man to a smallish kid. It has been a long time since I shot off f class stocks australia belly, and I guess some of the newer stocks can adjust that much, but balance too is important, so if such a butt is heavy, there needs to be some corresponding weight out front (but it doesn't have to be in the barrel).


    AlanF

    03-31-2008, 05:14 PM

    .Harder will be a stock that will accommodate a largish td bank canada login man to a smallish kid.
    Yes. Will need to make some allowance for that - thanks.

    Alan


    Rob Carnell

    04-01-2008, 07:51 AM

    It was a 3oz 3 lever and worked really well on my first BR rifle.

    If it is one of these triggers, you will be very happy with it.

    Rob Carnell
    Sydney, Australia


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